MR. CALL: It certainly could-we have learned that. We have also discovered that this bug-a-boo of fear is one of the biggest things we have to contend with. We get many, many letters from all parts of the United States, from people in all walks of life, from people in the Armed Forces and from people of all ages, who have maybe either just discovered they are homosexual or they have known it for a long time and want some kind of help. We find that when we even recommend that they read publications which we produce, many are afraid to, they are afraid to have their name on the mailing list, they think that some authorities are going to seize it,—well, that has never happened and we don't believe it will,-otherwise they are even afraid to be seen reading material on this subject because they feel that to be seen taking an interest in the subject is to be wearing a sign, or a mark of Cain, or something like that which says they are.

MODERATOR: Well, of the people you have knowledge of,-and you get all this correspondence, and you, Dr. Baker, handle many of these people as patients, is it acceptance that they are chiefly looking for, or do some of these people wish to be able to rid themselves of this particular approach to life?

DR. BAKER: Well, most of them that come to me want to get rid of the approach to life, shall we say. And it is, of course, a pretty difficult thing to do, I think it is practically impossible. I always tell them that if they have a heterosexual component large enough to function with, it will come into being and they may be able to marry or have a love affair with a person of the opposite sex. But in so many cases they don't have that potential, and I just simply have to work with what we have. I'm happy to say that I have among my friends a great many people in different professions, artists, teachers, doctors,-who have made remarkable adjustments to themselves and who have come to accept themselves as individuals, who have this whatdo-we-call-it, this electro-magnetic pull which we call "love," for some individual...

MODERATOR: You say that very scornfully. (laughter)

DR. BAKER: Well, the word love is so poorly understood, it is such a maligned word...

MODERATOR: Well, I have carefully refrained from using it.

DR. BAKER: That is why I used that tone of voice, to call attention to it, because I don't think most of us know just what this reaction is in us, and that it is something that is sort of automatic. It comes out of the deep layers of the unconscious and we feel attracted to certain types of people. I happen to know, for instance, a heterosexual situation in which one man married seven women, and they were all in the same pattern as his mother. Now that was certainly not a very intelligent. selection and his reactions to this busi-

mattachine REVIEW

ness of love was a pretty automatic thing,-pretty much in the animal world. And so it is with homosexuals,-they are attracted to certain types of people, and react with this response of love, and it is just not a matter of reason, it is not a matter of re-education, it is a deep, biological problem. I very much agree with the late Dr. Alfred Kinsey that homosexuality is one of the heritages from our mammalian ancestry. The animals all have homosexual reactions, it doesn't take much observation to know that. So, I believe we are dealing with something that is pretty basically part of our human heritage and that we have been trying to stamp it out. My emphasis is: let us accept it and develop the wonderful things associated with it. Because so many homosexuals are very versatile, gifted people, and I feel that society should make them proud members, and that giving encouragement brings out much in the way of hidden resources.

MODERATOR: Would you say, Dr. Baker, that there is a detectable level of talent associated directly with homosexuality, or would you feel that the percentage of homosexuals who are outstandingly gifted would be about the same as it is in the rest of the population? Is there a difference there, that you feel is associated with this?

DR. BAKER: I haven't any statistical report to make, because I work with small numbers of people in a very quiet way, and I haven't any basis for this in terms of numbers. But the people who come to me, I would say that almost universally my homosexuals are the artists, the gifted people, the people who have more versatility and have so much more to give to society. They are not just bread, meat and potatoes people,-they are really talented people, and I don't think that is exaggerated. What do you think about it, Hal? MR. CALL: I agree with you and then I would add something to it. I know this: that many forms of career pursuits and many levels of education and all sorts of variations are present among the homosexual people. I know there is also the tendency in some of the groups working on the problem today to point out that the homosexual is, possibly, on the average, more gifted than is the non-homosexual or heterosexual person. I hardly think this is a just evaluation of the homosexual. I think that he is probably no more gifted on the average than is the ordinary person. The homosexual, it seems, does have an opportunity, perhaps, to develop some of the creative and artistic talents that are normally not developed in the instances where a young man marries a girl, in his early twenties and they immediately start producing a family. Of course, this means that providing for the family has to be the main thing, whereas in the life of the homosexual in the same age bracket he doesn't have so many pressures of that sort and he can perhaps develop these talents and creative abilities and do more with them.